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2 hours ago, adity said:

 The movie was going for more visual storytelling which also worked to some extent.

 

1 hour ago, roun90 said:

I frankly considered this movie an actual example of "Show; Don't Tell".

 

Did you guys watch a different cut of the movie or something? :lol:

Coz I thought Joker, for the most part, is quite the opposite of "Show; Don't Tell".

It can't help itself from trying to explain everything through expository dialogue. It literally has the main character spell out even the most obvious of things to the viewer.

I personally don't mind it much and I can see why they did it (the movie is intended for mainstream audiences after all), but I could still tell that it was done to an extent that some might consider as insulting to their intelligence.

 

There are a couple of minor things that the movie leaves to the audiences. But they have so little impact on the story that it just feels tacked on. You wonder why it was even done in the first place other than for pretense.

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1 hour ago, STICK3Rboy said:

 

 

Did you guys watch a different cut of the movie or something? :lol:

Coz I thought Joker, for the most part, is quite the opposite of "Show; Don't Tell".

It can't help itself from trying to explain everything through expository dialogue. It literally has the main character spell out even the most obvious of things to the viewer.

I personally don't mind it much and I can see why they did it (the movie is intended for mainstream audiences after all), but I could still tell that it was done to an extent that some might consider as insulting to their intelligence.

 

There are a couple of minor things that the movie leaves to the audiences. But they have so little impact on the story that it just feels tacked on. You wonder why it was even done in the first place other than for pretense.

 

Mind sharing some examples of this?

Edited by Sach4life

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1 minute ago, Sach4life said:

Mind sharing some examples of this?

 

Off the top of my head:

 
 
 
 
Spoiler

 

The entire exposition-heavy talk show scene at the end where the Joker explains his motivations and even all his character traits.

The twist where it is revealed that his crush was never with him at all. They had to go and show a few scenes she was in and show her disappearing to "make us understand" that she was never really there.

The part where he explains why he ends up calling himself "Joker".

The bit where he has to point out to the midget that he's letting him go coz he was the only one nice to him.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Sach4life said:

It was done well and i don't think it was something which i would explain as 'insulting intelligence'

 

It would be insulting intelligence because the movie assumes that people are dumb enough to not understand those obvious things otherwise and hence has to spell it out to us.

I don't see how it was done well because it is basically the movie equivalent of someone condescendingly and slowly explaining something obvious to you.

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41 minutes ago, STICK3Rboy said:

 

Off the top of my head:

Spoiler
 
 
 
 
  Reveal hidden contents

 

The entire exposition-heavy talk show scene at the end where the Joker explains his motivations and even all his character traits.

The twist where it is revealed that his crush was never with him at all. They had to go and show a few scenes she was in and show her disappearing to "make us understand" that she was never really there.

The part where he explains why he ends up calling himself "Joker".

The bit where he has to point out to the midget that he's letting him go coz he was the only one nice to him.

 

 

 

It would be insulting intelligence because the movie assumes that people are dumb enough to not understand those obvious things otherwise and hence has to spell it out to us.

I don't see how it was done well because it is basically the movie equivalent of someone condescendingly and slowly explaining something obvious to you.

 

 

Apart from the imaginary relationship angle, i fail to see how any of those examples are valid. They way he tells that midget that he has been nice to him had nothing to do with explaining his actions to the audience (as it was pretry self explanatory) and more to do with theJoker telling it to the midget. If i was in that situation, i might have said that exact same thing. Same goes for that Joker dialogue and the climax. He is a psycho and it made total sense for him to go on that monologue to justify his actions to the world instead of not saying anything. It made total sense in the context of how he is as a character, regardless of how self explanatory it was for the audience.

Edited by Sach4life

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6 hours ago, STICK3Rboy said:

Watched Joker last night. Thought it was decent.

While it has some really excellent cinematography, nice pacing and a great performance from Joaquin Phoenix, I was still left disappointed overall.

Like someone has already said, the story is definitely lacking and so is the characterization. The movie feels superficial, tame and also kinda juvenile at times, which I wouldn't have found issue with if the movie wasn't a self-serious drama.

Even when Joker does some terrible things in the movie, I was feeling indifferent to it all, which I really shouldn't be.

 

The movie definitely wears its inspirations on its sleeve which makes it impossible to not make direct comparisons to Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. And let me just say that it ends up coming across as more of a wannabe. This is probably pretty close to what a Bollywood remake of Taxi Driver would be like.

Unlike in those movies (or even in Nightcrawler), I didn't find the main character too compelling either. I was even left wondering if they had gone full-retard with him at times. I wasn't a fan of his "medical condition" plot device. It was overdone, over-the-top and just kinda lame. Nightcrawler's Lou Bloom was a much better and much more chilling sociopathic protagonist who actually made me feel uncomfortable with how sick he could get.


Completely agree. Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy were in a different league altogether.

Edited by cyberpunk

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18 minutes ago, Sach4life said:

 

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Apart from the imaginary relationship angle, i fail to see how any of those examples are valid. They way he tells that midget that he has been nice to him had nothing to do with explaining his actions to the audience (as it was pretry self explanatory) and more to do with theJoker telling it to the midget. If i was in that situation, i might have said that exact same thing. Same goes for that Joker dialogue. What exactly was wrong in that? He wanted to announce to the world that he is the Joker. What exactly is the issue in that? Same goes for the climax. He is psycho and it made total sense for him to go on that monologue to justify his actions to the world instead of not saying anything. It made total sense in the context of how he is as a character, regardless of how self explanatory it was for the audience.

 

 
 
 
 
Spoiler

 

The midget thing was more of a criticism on the implications of the dialogue on his motivation. With just one dialogue, they attempted to boil his motivation down to "I hurt people who are not nice to me", which is too simple and dumbed down and reduces Joker to just another mentally ill guy who was bullied and is now seeking revenge. In a way, it kind of disservices the movie itself. It's lazy writing.

The Joker dialogue is where he explains that he calls himself Joker because De Niro's character had called him a joker. Another piece of lazy writing, which again tries to boil things down into an easily understandable bit of information for the audience and in the process just simplifies things further. 

And regarding the climax, how does it make sense for him as a character to justify his actions to the world? A world which he himself has given up on and has written off as something which is crazy and devoid of empathy. Do you think he is the kind of character who feels he owes an explanation to the world? What do you think he seeks to achieve by justifying his actions? It was plain and simple a scene meant as exposition for the audience and it was quite evident.

 

 

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        Spoiler

 
The midget thing was more of a criticism on the implications of the dialogue on his motivation. With just one dialogue, they attempted to boil his motivation down to "I hurt people who are not nice to me", which is too simple and dumbed down and reduces Joker to just another mentally ill guy who was bullied and is now seeking revenge. In a way, it kind of disservices the movie itself. It's lazy writing.
The Joker dialogue is where he explains that he calls himself Joker because De Niro's character had called him a joker. Another piece of lazy writing, which again tries to boil things down into an easily understandable bit of information for the audience and in the process just simplifies things further. 
And regarding the climax, how does it make sense for him as a character to justify his actions to the world? A world which he himself has given up on and has written off as something which is crazy and devoid of empathy. Do you think he is the kind of character who feels he owes an explanation to the world? What do you think he seeks to achieve by justifying his actions? It was plain and simple a scene meant as exposition for the audience and it was quite evident.
 

 

I don't think it was meant for the audience at all. It was pretty evident through out, and the only reason why they did it because it made sense foe the character. Yes, i absolutely think it made sense for him to talk so much and explain everything at this point when he has just turned into a Joker. It made total sense in my opinion. Had it been 2 years after he turned one, i would have agreed with your point.

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1 hour ago, STICK3Rboy said:

 

Off the top of my head:

Spoiler
 
 
 
 
  Reveal hidden contents

 

The entire exposition-heavy talk show scene at the end where the Joker explains his motivations and even all his character traits.

The twist where it is revealed that his crush was never with him at all. They had to go and show a few scenes she was in and show her disappearing to "make us understand" that she was never really there.

The part where he explains why he ends up calling himself "Joker".

The bit where he has to point out to the midget that he's letting him go coz he was the only one nice to him.

 

 

 

 

I would have to disagree with you a bit over here


 

Spoiler

 

1) Joker is not just nice to those who are nice to him. He spares Midget on a whim. This is seen from when he killed his "Imaginary Girlfriend". This is not explicitly shown, but just after the scene where it's revealed his relationship with her is imaginary, and he leaves her apartment and goes back to his own - you can see police sirens blaring. Implication here is she is killed, although she has literally done nothing.

 

2) The entire talk show exposition is a scam. At that point he is already beyond caring. As he said before "His whole life is a comedy, not a tragedy". He was never interested in killing Bill Murray for revenge. He simply wanted to go on a talk show and cause the riots further throughout the city to intensify. He knew the city was already on the keg, and he knew exactly what to say to make it burst.

 

3) The above point is further proved at the very end of the movie. Watch how the police tell him that he's a freak and caused all this (seeing the riots). And see how he responds. Phoenix's acting in this very last line is what cements him as one of the best Jokers. He responds, very innocently - without even understanding what's happening and caring - "I Know; Isn't it beautiful?"

 

4) The absolute end of the movie - where Joker stands up on top of the crashed police car and dances in front of the rioteers - that's the exact audience he wanted. That part was what validated his entire life.

 

5) As I said, you have to see the body language throughout the movie - to notice Arthur Fleck's gradual increasing madness.When the muggers took his signboard - he was normal. When Randall planted the gun on him for his job - normal but angry. Mother's Thomas Wayne confession - angry but hopeful later; All interactions with Thomas Wayne - Just Hopeful but getting a bit angry towards the end; Killing those 3 execs on train - Just angry but not snapped; Mother got sick and Bill Murray mocked him - Beginning of snapping; Mother's Madness Confirmation and Imaginary GF - Final Snapping and beginning of Joker (With Joker's Makeup); Rising up on the Car to the applause - Joker is cemented forever


 

 

Of course, this is my opinion and yours might be different. 

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9 minutes ago, Sach4life said:

I don't think it was meant for the audience at all. It was pretty evident through out, and the only reason why they did it because it made sense foe the character. Yes, i absolutely think it made sense for him to talk so much and explain everything at this point when he has just turned into a Joker. It made total sense in my opinion. Had it been 2 years after he turned one, i would have agreed with your point.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 

Yeah it made sense. I think he realised how powerful he was when he gave in to his insanity and wanted the glory. 

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45 minutes ago, roun90 said:

 

I would have to disagree with you a bit over here


 

  Hide contents

 

1) Joker is not just nice to those who are nice to him. He spares Midget on a whim. This is seen from when he killed his "Imaginary Girlfriend". This is not explicitly shown, but just after the scene where it's revealed his relationship with her is imaginary, and he leaves her apartment and goes back to his own - you can see police sirens blaring. Implication here is she is killed, although she has literally done nothing.

 

2) The entire talk show exposition is a scam. At that point he is already beyond caring. As he said before "His whole life is a comedy, not a tragedy". He was never interested in killing Bill Murray for revenge. He simply wanted to go on a talk show and cause the riots further throughout the city to intensify. He knew the city was already on the keg, and he knew exactly what to say to make it burst.

 

3) The above point is further proved at the very end of the movie. Watch how the police tell him that he's a freak and caused all this (seeing the riots). And see how he responds. Phoenix's acting in this very last line is what cements him as one of the best Jokers. He responds, very innocently - without even understanding what's happening and caring - "I Know; Isn't it beautiful?"

 

4) The absolute end of the movie - where Joker stands up on top of the crashed police car and dances in front of the rioteers - that's the exact audience he wanted. That part was what validated his entire life.

 

5) As I said, you have to see the body language throughout the movie - to notice Arthur Fleck's gradual increasing madness.When the muggers took his signboard - he was normal. When Randall planted the gun on him for his job - normal but angry. Mother's Thomas Wayne confession - angry but hopeful later; All interactions with Thomas Wayne - Just Hopeful but getting a bit angry towards the end; Killing those 3 execs on train - Just angry but not snapped; Mother got sick and Bill Murray mocked him - Beginning of snapping; Mother's Madness Confirmation and Imaginary GF - Final Snapping and beginning of Joker (With Joker's Makeup); Rising up on the Car to the applause - Joker is cemented forever

 

 

Of course, this is my opinion and yours might be different. 


 

Spoiler
 
 
 
 
2
Spoiler

 

1. Like I said, that dialogue actually kind of disservices the movie itself.

 

2. If he is already beyond caring, why does he care to justify himself to the world? And at that point in the movie, I don't think it is ever even implied that he wants to further the unrest and riots in the city. Can you give me an example where this is implied? If you remember, he didn't even know the protests were going to take place on that same day. 

Joker, in this movie, doesn't even come across as someone who can be manipulative enough to intentionally cause chaos in the whole city. He didn't give a damn about what happens in the city. He only gave a damn about himself. He only wanted to go to the talk show and blow his own head off. He instead killed Murray in the heat of the moment and unwittingly became the hero of the riots.

 

3. At this point, he has realized that he unwittingly caused all this chaos and was brought into the limelight which he obviously loved. And no, just because he enjoyed what he unintentionally caused doesn't mean he wanted to cause it in the first place.

 

4. I agree but it is pretty obvious what he wants. And like I said, he already spelled it out in the exposition scene. But yeah, that moment gave me goosebumps.

 

5. Agree with his increasing madness (it isn't exactly as subtle as you seem to think it is) but it's the simple, juvenile and frankly quite lazy reasons behind it which rob it of its potential greatness. 

 

 

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