[PC] Ask The Experts Thread

[Ph3N0M]

^Where did you get P8Z77V for 12k? That must be the P8Z77 - M, LX, or VLX, which are not good for SLI. He needs at least a P8Z77V, which costs upwards of 16k.

http://www.flipkart.com/asus-p8z77-vlx-motherboard/p/itmd8qh4vakthzny?pid=MBDD8QH4UVGGYSMP&ref=6b1d2b83-9826-45b0-934f-ba6d909e5bda&srno=s_2&otracker=from-search

http://www.flipkart.com/asus-p8z77-v-motherboard/p/itmd8b8vwa3unjyx?pid=MBDD8B8VGT4WPZ8T&ref=6b1d2b83-9826-45b0-934f-ba6d909e5bda&srno=s_3&otracker=from-search

 

I myself have built my PC with the latter board very recently.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Ph3N0M

[Ph3N0M]

In fact the LX doesn't even support SLI, only crossfire:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1697854

 

There are some other technical differences/shortcomings too.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Ph3N0M

[Ph3N0M]

Here is an article documenting the different versions of the P8Z77 motherboards. There are a lot of them.

http://www.custompcguide.net/the-differences-between-asus-z77-v-series-motherboards/

[piper]

Okay, let's distract from the heated discussion.

 

I have a 1GB OC 6850 powered by Seasonic S12II 620w. If I wish to go the dual-gpu way :

 

1. Do I need to get the exact same card?

2. Is PSU powerful enough? Reviews have it pushing 780w with 80+ efficiency

3. Disadvantage of dual-GPU setup? Any specifics to 6850 would be most helpful.

 

Why I am considering this is because I may be able to get another one of these cards for approx Rs. 6000 or lesser and combined performance should be good enough considering the total price of Rs. 12000 (for both cards) as compared to a single card of that price range.

[ALPHA17]

 

1. Do I need to get the exact same card?

2. Is PSU powerful enough? Reviews have it pushing 780w with 80+ efficiency

3. Disadvantage of dual-GPU setup? Any specifics to 6850 would be most helpful.

 

Why I am considering this is because I may be able to get another one of these cards for approx Rs. 6000 or lesser and combined performance should be good enough considering the total price of Rs. 12000 (for both cards) as compared to a single card of that price range.

^^ Your answers as you have put up, serially --

• Yes same GPU type is required, although if this was a HD6870 you could have combined it with a HD6850. Try to get the exact same card if possible, down to model and make (brand).
  
• Your PSU is sufficient.
  
• You will need to download CrossFire profiles for specified games, poor performance in certain games, especially day-one buys, noisier and overall hotter setup. Also expect the advantage to rapidly dissipate once the graphic card(s) are no longer actively supported by the company with profiles.

In your case it is a definite win for now but what about later, who will take two HD6850's from your hand and I doubt such a late CrossFire setup will be good because the HD68** series has been completely replaced by AMD's contemporary HD78** series which will get the bulk focus (in profiles and driver tweaks). So again scaling of performance will not be predictable.

 

Hope this helps, Cheerio!

[piper]

Thanks, Alpha. What is the "profiles" concept? Say I wish to utilised dual-GPU setup for Battlefield 3. I have to download profiles for Catalyst or to patch the game?

[ALPHA17]

Thanks, Alpha. What is the "profiles" concept? Say I wish to utilised dual-GPU setup for Battlefield 3. I have to download profiles for Catalyst or to patch the game?

 

Basically when you are using two GPU's it is not like a dual-core processor, it is two-distinct entities on the run. Now games and the cards themselves are not blessed with sufficient know how that they split the work and try to do things more efficiently and the standard drivers do not help either.

 

Thus enters the profiling concept, each AAA-title gets a profile increment to the driver patch (although game patches also sometimes improve graphic performance), this profile allows cards to communicate more efficiently whilst powering the game and the better the code here, more impressive is the scaling in performance. Anything doing 90% OR better scaling is considered great.

 

Hope this explains the methodology behind profiles, Cheerio!

Edited November 28, 2012 by ALPHA17

[mango_man]

 

There were a lot of technical jargon there that I didnt follow. Need to read it more carefully.

 

How do you overclock- Push a button/click a mouse/type a sentence? Or is it more like unscrew cpu/this wire there/that part here/new part there/type a code & enter specific numbers yada yada?

 

Please explain in layman terms. Like I'm a 12year old boi who wantza playz cools games with very geud girapheecs.

[ALPHA17]

There were a lot of technical jargon there that I didnt follow. Need to read it more carefully.

 

How do you overclock- Push a button/click a mouse/type a sentence? Or is it more like unscrew cpu/this wire there/that part here/new part there/type a code & enter specific numbers yada yada? :samui:/>/>

 

Please explain in layman terms. Like I'm a 12year old boi who wantza playz cools games with very geud girapheecs. :fear:/>/>

 

^^ Well over-clocking can be accomplished by that push-button system but it will be a fixed-profile based increment -- for which you will need a compatible motherboard + processor (also these are modest pieces, say ~5% -->20% over-clocks).

 

Proper over-clocking is like MODDING yours console OR rooting your Android and installing a new ROM, you do it the dirty way, you access the BIOS / tweak specifications (play around with voltage settings and frequency multipliers with a keyboard) to make a device run the way you want it to run.

 

And if you want to over-clock, get a decent cooler -- say a Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO OR better, get a processor that is unlocked (marked with a -k suffix), a motherboard that is supportive of same (Intel Z77 chipset based) and finally a beefy SMPS (Cooler Master Silent Pro M600W OR Corsair TX v2650W / better) = BRING LOT OF CASH, IF YOU WANT AN OVER-CLOCK CAPABLE SYSTEM.

 

More on topic, here --> over-clocking Wiki / What is over-clocking, a brief overview) / Over-clocking -- YouTube.

 

Does this answer your question?

 

Hope this helps, Cheerio!

Edited November 28, 2012 by ALPHA17

[mango_man]

^It does. Specially the push button overclocking.

 

So how much money are we talking here?

 

Also, are you in this professionally or just an enthu?

[mango_man]

P.s. I've heard i7 2600k has 8 cores that is usefull for editing & multitasking... true? n dat i5 doesnt right? n what is that sandy/ivy bridge? pls make me climb it

[AK77]

^Where did you get P8Z77V for 12k? That must be the P8Z77 - M, LX, or VLX, which are not good for SLI. He needs at least a P8Z77V, which costs upwards of 16k.

http://www.flipkart.com/asus-p8z77-vlx-motherboard/p/itmd8qh4vakthzny?pid=MBDD8QH4UVGGYSMP&ref=6b1d2b83-9826-45b0-934f-ba6d909e5bda&srno=s_2&otracker=from-search

http://www.flipkart.com/asus-p8z77-v-motherboard/p/itmd8b8vwa3unjyx?pid=MBDD8B8VGT4WPZ8T&ref=6b1d2b83-9826-45b0-934f-ba6d909e5bda&srno=s_3&otracker=from-search

 

I myself have built my PC with the latter board very recently.

i got p8z77v for 12500 fro flipkart and i know everything about LX,M,VLX so don't say about it.....its price has now increased...infact pro version was available at 14k.and deluxe was available at 18.5k

Edited November 29, 2012 by akshay77

[AK77]

P.s. I've heard i7 2600k has 8 cores that is usefull for editing & multitasking... true? n dat i5 doesnt right? n what is that sandy/ivy bridge? pls make me climb it :P/>

don't think of i7 when your budget is 50k.....an i7 will easily cost more than 18k-19k....first decide your budget and plane things accordingly instead of getting carried away by searching more and more elite products....

[ALPHA17]

^It does. Specially the push button overclocking.

 

So how much money are we talking here?

 

Also, are you in this professionally or just an enthu?

 

^^ Okay one down, what more do you not understand from later?

 

When we are talking about over-clocking, lets do a run down --

Intel Core i5 3570k ~15000/- OR Intel Core i7 2600k ~16500/- (vs. Core i5 3550 ~13000/-)

ASUS P8Z77-V ~16000/- (vs. ASUS P8H77-V ~9500/- OR GIGABYTE-B75M-D3H ~4500/-)

Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO ~2500/- (vs. ~0/- for stock cooler which is bundled with processor)

Corsair TX v2650W ~5800/- (vs. Seasonic S12II 520W ~4400/-)

 

^^ Do the maths and it comes upto ~7000/- -->11000/- over current setup that I have recommended, if you are okay with that then purchase it by all means. Also with all this money that we are theoretically saving you can get a better graphics card and an audio card that might be more handy to you than over-clocking.

 

P.s. I've heard i7 2600k has 8 cores that is usefull for editing & multitasking... true? n dat i5 doesnt right? n what is that sandy/ivy bridge? pls make me climb it :P/>

Wrong the Intel Core i7 2600k has 4 physical core, that can work on 8 concurrent threads via the process of hyper-threading --> Wiki hyper-threading . This will be advantageous if you plan to work more on editing and play less but if you plan the inverse OR a 50-50 ratio (gaming-work) then the Core i5 makes much better sense with its better efficiency and cheap(er) cost.

 

Sandy-Bridge is Intel's older line of processors that were sold from late 2010 --> early 2012 this family includes the Core i3 21** series, the Core i5 23** / 24** / 2500k and Core i7 2600k.

 

Ivy-Bridge processors are the newer processors that have been introduced in April -->May this year and include the Core i3 32** series, the Core i5 3*** series / 3570k and Core i7 3770k; apart from being a newer design the Ivy-Bridge consume lesser power (77W vs. 95W of Sandy-Bridge) and have improved IPC --> Instructions per Cycle vs. the older generation processors.

 

Hope this helps, Cheerio!

[mango_man]

don't think of i7 when your budget is 50k.....an i7 will easily cost more than 18k-19k....first decide your budget and plane things accordingly instead of getting carried away by searching more and more elite products....

I was thinking more on the lines of getting the best processor and most cabable mobo even if it means a few extra bucks. I dont think i'd want a complicated ali system...(isnt it better if i buy da best graphic card now and then upgrade it if necessary down the line than getting 2 relatively older ones in an sli setup? sli will cost more and i wont care for all the power it will provide for that price i guess. could u elaborate?)

 

Also like alpha if you could suggest your best configuration then that would help... i was also a bit confused with whether to go with an intel combo or and amd combo? amd has an i7(n it will be cheaper no)? May be i can save a bit on the graphics card for now and buy a better one later if need be?

whats the trade off?

better processor+better mobo+average graphic card VS. average proces+average mobo+best graphics card?

[mango_man]

^^ Okay one down, what more do you not understand from later?

 

When we are talking about over-clocking, lets do a run down --

Intel Core i5 3570k ~15000/- OR Intel Core i7 2600k ~16500/- (vs. Core i5 3550 ~13000/-)

difference between the two? i5 has 4 cores + 4 cores hyper threading? a 1.5k difference is not much it it does me good in long run.

 

ASUS P8Z77-V ~16000/- (vs. ASUS P8H77-V ~9500/- OR GIGABYTE-B75M-D3H ~4500/-)

Now what is this? :fear:/> amd equivalents of i7 n i5? Are they better and cheaper than intel? or both r equals? they have hyper threading?

Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO ~2500/- (vs. ~0/- for stock cooler which is bundled with processor)

Why do i need such a costly cooler in general? i have no idea why its needed...

 

Corsair TX v2650W ~5800/- (vs. Seasonic S12II 520W ~4400/-)

such a costly power supply? :O/> why cant i get cheaper cooler n power supply ...prolly cheaper brands etc? it wont affect performance right?

 

^^ Do the maths and it comes upto ~7000/- -->11000/- over current setup that I have recommended, if you are okay with that then purchase it by all means. Also with all this money that we are theoretically saving you can get a better graphics card and an audio card that might be more handy to you than over-clocking.

Will the push button overclocking give 20% boost? also wouldnt the i7 in unclocked state still be better than any i5 cuz of 4 cores+4 cores of hyperthreading? better in the long run?

 

Wrong the Intel Core i7 2600k has 4 physical core, that can work on 8 concurrent threads via the process of hyper-threading --> Wiki hyper-threading . This will be advantageous if you plan to work more on editing and play less but if you plan the inverse OR a 50-50 ratio (gaming-work) then the Core i5 makes much better sense with its better efficiency and cheap(er) cost.

Editing is work. Gaming is play. And i wont want to compromise on any. i think i7 wid hyperthreading would do be better if i want to take up n learn some animation/vfx work in the near future? could u pls tell me how many cores i5 has n does it have hyperthreading? if yes then what % of performance difference will a hyperthreaded i7 vs and a hyperthreaded i5 would give me?

Sandy-Bridge is Intel's older line of processors that were sold from late 2010 --> early 2012 this family includes the Core i3 21** series, the Core i5 23** / 24** / 2500k and Core i7 2600k.

 

Ivy-Bridge processors are the newer processors that have been introduced in April -->May this year and include the Core i3 32** series, the Core i5 3*** series / 3570k and Core i7 3770k; apart from being a newer design the Ivy-Bridge consume lesser power (77W vs. 95W of Sandy-Bridge) and have improved IPC --> Instructions per Cycle vs. the older generation processors.

 

There is a i7 3770 now? is it a -k version? i7 2600k vs i7 3770(k?) which is better? also, doesnt -k also stand for hyper threading enabled? or does it just mean over clocking enabled? nagain can i push button overclock i7 2600k to get around 20% performance boost?

Hope this helps, Cheerio!

 

Sorry for the n00b I am. :lol:/>

Always have been a console gamer. Infact, fun fact, right now i'm posting this from a laptop that runs on intel celeron processor+ancient mobo+512 ram+80gb hdd+no graphic card not even on board. :bigyellowgrin:/>

Edited November 29, 2012 by aman-is-here

[ALPHA17]

I was thinking more on the lines of getting the best processor and most cabable mobo even if it means a few extra bucks. I dont think i'd want a complicated ali system...(isnt it better if i buy da best graphic card now and then upgrade it if necessary down the line than getting 2 relatively older ones in an sli setup? sli will cost more and i wont care for all the power it will provide for that price i guess. could u elaborate?)

 

Also like alpha if you could suggest your best configuration then that would help... i was also a bit confused with whether to go with an intel combo or and amd combo? amd has an i7(n it will be cheaper no)? May be i can save a bit on the graphics card for now and buy a better one later if need be?

whats the trade off?

better processor+better mobo+average graphic card VS. average proces+average mobo+best graphics card?

 

^^ Don't juggle around so many thoughts, if you want to buy a graphics card now it better be good anything below a nVidia GT650Ti ~13500/- is too anaemic for current generation titles on 1080p. So get a good card preferably a HD7870 2GB OR better (and not be worried for the next ~3 years).

 

AMD processors does not figure into the current equation because you want to game and their performance metric over there is worse than a Intel Pentium G series processor which retail for ~3500/-.

 

If this was a sole work-station build then a FX-8350 would not have been out of place.

AMD FX-8350 vs. Intel Core i5 3470

As you look at the overall picture, the AMD processor performs well in multi-threaded (heavy) applications but stick it in games and lighter threaded applications it looses by huge margins. Also max TDP of Intel processor is ~80W whilst the AMD processor here is guzzling ~130W of power.

AMD does manage to pull away with some very specific wins when compared to similarly priced Intel parts. Performance in the latest x264 benchmark as well as heavily threaded POV-Ray and Cinebench tests show AMD with the clear multithreaded performance advantage. Other heavily threaded integer workloads also do quite well on Vishera. The only part that didn't readily beat its Intel alternative was AMD's six-core FX-6300, the rest did extremely well in our heavily threaded tests. Look beyond those specific applications however and Intel can pull away with a significant lead. Lightly threaded applications or those whose performance depends on a mixture of single and multithreaded workloads are typically wins for Intel. The story hasn't really changed in that regard. For AMD to become competitive across the board it needs significant changes to the underlying architecture, some of which I don't know that we'll see until the 2013 - 2014 timeframe. Even then, Intel's progress isn't showing any signs of slowing.

 

Power consumption is also a big negative for Vishera. The CPU draws considerably more power under load compared to Ivy Bridge, or even Sandy Bridge for that matter.

 

Ultimately Vishera is an easier AMD product to recommend than Zambezi before it. However the areas in which we'd recommend it are limited to those heavily threaded applications that show very little serialization. As our compiler benchmark shows, a good balance of single and multithreaded workloads within a single application can dramatically change the standings between AMD and Intel. You have to understand your workload very well to know whether or not Vishera is the right platform for it. Even if the fit is right, you have to be ok with the increased power consumption over Intel as well.

 

For you the best trade-off will be a good processor -- Core i5 3550 (this processor is like a stock i5 3570k so quit worrying)

average motherboard -- GIGABYTE-B75M-D3H ~4500/- OR great motherboard -- ASUS P8H77-V ~9000/-

good graphics card -- AMD HD7950 3GB

 

^^ I can see that you are not going to over-clock, then why fret-fume about it. Why pay a ~7000/- premium to get tools you will not use, might as well get a great sound-system with that cash.

 

All this coming from an AMD processor user. Irony.

 

Hope this answers your questions, Cheerio!

[ALPHA17]

Sorry for the n00b I am. :lol:/>/>

Always have been a console gamer. Infact, fun fact, right now i'm posting this from a laptop that runs on intel celeron processor+ancient mobo+512 ram+80gb hdd+no graphic card not even on board. :bigyellowgrin:/>/>

 

Not an issue, its a fresh start. Even I was one when I bought my current PC and I sincerely want you to avoid same mistakes.

 

No Intel Core i5 processors do not support hyper-threading, only i7's do. The -k suffix means the processor is over-clockable, not hyper-threading enabled.

 

No AMD equivalents to i7's. The top tier AMD processors can barely catch up against Intel's mid-range. Do not think about AMD based system for now.

 

Yeah! To keep a -k series processors you need cooling, the stock stuff is not going to be pretty and this is the cheapest decent cooler doing the rounds. So see, tough luck.

 

Look if you want to skimp on the SMPS / PSU (whichever you call it), Google this -- "Death of a gutless wonder Part I and II Johnny Guru". Once you understand what a cheap SMPS does to your components and are willing to take the risk, come back, sign a disclaimer warrant stating that -- you are fully responsible for frying your system and I am not held responsible. After that go buy whichever cheap SMPS you want.

 

Push button over-clocking is not really going to change your game experience, your daily-tasks OR even heavy tasks. It will just be a checkbox ticked off on the list. And over-clocking means your processor draws more power.

 

I am an animation student and you can learn to do it on the most wretched system, it does not matter how good the machine is. It is the person behind it. If you want to create art, compose a song, you will do it, irrespective of the tools at your disposal. I am student, I do not earn and still buy games (legitimate), gadets, review them and put it up and I want a new graphics card but I know my limits so I will wait.

 

There are both -k and non -k versions of Core i7. As stated earlier the -k suffix stands for unlocked over-clockable processor and not hyper-threading.

 

Hope this answers your queries. Cheerio!

[Keano]

aman - are you alright ?

[mango_man]

if i5 doesnt have hyperthreading then i think i'd go with i7. i7 2600k vs i7 3770? Both have hyperthreading? N price difference?

 

Also motherboard...what specs n features do they povide? Sli is one i know of. Other? Max ram capability etc? Does the basic motherboard itself directly affect performance? Like cores is for processors...what's in motherboard?

And, graphics card... Amd 7950 or 7970 will wrk wid intel processor...i heard both brands dont work wid each other?