The News Thread

[Right]

well obviously, it seemed to work. i really find it amusing that people having no experience of any elected office, of having to forge diplomatic relations or just international relations in general, have the cheek to just impudently scoff at such matters.

If you think that those stupid arguments have "worked", its dangerous cuz if those visits were not on cards, chinese wouldn't have gone back.

 

The bunker that was abandoned was the one that Indian army took over after chinese came past the LAC on 15th april. The bunker at Chunar area of Ladakh was fortified by India on 20th April.

Sorry, so basically the reason why they came here is not known?

[Right]

Nemo, BJP Was not in majority, but ya they were down right pathetic in last 2 years.

 

Ya 11:30 pm rule would def be revised now, keeping my fingers crossed.

 

BJP screwed GOA too.

The night curfew existed in Bangalore even before the BJP rule.

I was there between 2002-2007, city used to be awesome back then, but around 1030 everything used to get shut down.

[AtheK]

City used to shut down, clubs were open till late, i still remembering partying till 4 am regularly in 2003-2004

[ALPHA17]

 

If you think that those stupid arguments have "worked", its dangerous cuz if those visits were not on cards, chinese wouldn't have gone back.

 

Actually it has strengthened their hand in the upcoming talks because the agenda will be these incursions and they will keep maintaining that it is their territory while we stick to our guns. So much for bilateral and comprehensive talks.

 

Tactical movement for strategic fixing.

Sorry, so basically the reason why they came here is not known?

 

The reason they came here is pretty obvious, to assert their dominance on Aksai Chin and to probe how long it will take for us to react.

[LordSpymaster]

On a lighter note : http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/pakistani-government-to-ban-air-conditioners-364355

 

Sent from my Note II

 

 

[Right]

 

 

Actually it has strengthened their hand in the upcoming talks because the agenda will be these incursions and they will keep maintaining that it is their territory while we stick to our guns. So much for bilateral and comprehensive talks.

 

Tactical movement for strategic fixing.

 

The reason they came here is pretty obvious, to assert their dominance on Aksai Chin and to probe how long it will take for us to react.

Good point. I can just imagine the awkwardness.

But do we have anything to talk to them apart from the border dispute?

 

Trade is just going fine as is...

[ALPHA17]

Trade is just going fine as is...

 

Trade is going good for them, we have a large deficit from our end. Also other modalities have to be sorted such as Chinese firms defaming Indian firms in Africa by imitating the packaging.

 

Good you can imagine the awkwardness.

[playstation]

Sainullah Ranjay dies....

 

It should have not been this way.

 

 

India could have exchanged him for Sarbajit atleast tried something like it... ....magar yeh harami log salo ko desh ko loot ne se phursat mila tab toh kuch dosra kaam soche bhi..

[Right]

CRPF. Raipur, CG.

Looks like a good gun.

 

[playstation]

CRPF. Raipur, CG.

Looks like a good gun.

 

 

Udham yeh gun mera ko dilade...atleast i want to be prepared next time chinese come...

[Nemo]

That is IMI Tavor Tar 21, bullpup assault rifle from Isreal. is pretty badass.

and the dude wielding it looks a lot like saif khan

[Bird Bird Bird]

Have seen that and more IRL when I was in CG (friends with a guy from STF). Even though the guns are pretty, the final outcome makes you choke on your vomit. :|

[ALPHA17]

 

CRPF. Raipur, CG.

Looks like a good gun.

That is IMI Tavor Tar 21, bullpup assault rifle from Isreal. is pretty badass.

 

I thought only the PARA Regiment and Special Forces would get to wield this gun.

 

Correction CRPF has also ordered for ~12000 pieces, they are slightly different and are denoted as the Mini-Tavor (X95)

In late 2002, India signed an INR 880 million (about USD 17.7 million) deal with Israel Military Industries for 3,070 Tavor assault rifles to be issued to India's special forces personnel, where its ergonomics, reliability in heat and sand, and fast-point/fast-shoot design might give them an edge at close-quarters and employment from inside vehicles. By 2005, IMI had supplied 350–400 Tavors to India's northern Special Frontier Force (SFF). These were subsequently declared to be "operationally unsatisfactory". The required changes have since been made, and tests in Israel during 2006 went well, clearing the contracted consignment for delivery. The Tavor has now entered operational service – even as India gears up for a larger competition that could feature a 9 mm MTAR-21 version. Known as the Zittara is manufactured in India by the Ordnance Factories Board for Indian service, the new Tavors have a modified single-piece stock and new sights, as well as Turkish-made MKEK T-40 40 mm under-barrel grenade launchers. 5,500 have been recently inducted and more rifles are being ordered. The Indian Navy's elite marine commandos are also preparing to adopt the assault rifles. A consignment of over 500 TAR-21 Tavor assault rifles and another 30 Galil sniper rifles worth over INR 150 million (USD 3.3 million) and INR 20 million respectively was delivered to the MARCOS (marine commandos) in December 2010. CRPF has ordered 12000 micro tavor rifles also known as X-95 and it received the first shipment of the rifles in early 2011.

 

Have seen that and more IRL when I was in CG (friends with a guy from STF). Even though the guns are pretty, the final outcome makes you choke on your vomit. :|

 

 

The good doctor understand.

Udham yeh gun mera ko dilade...atleast i want to be prepared next time chinese come...

 

In India military calibre weapons cannot be in the hands of the populace.

[Nemo]

@ Alekh

what do you mean by final outcome ? ability to shoot of the soldiers ? or the damage the guns cause ?

in any case, Tavor are meant for urban combat, putting in legendary M16's fire power in a bull pup rifle's design to get maneuverability in tight spaces. It can be questionable as to why they are procured over conventional assault rifles for a predominantly jungle warfare that crpf will be facing and acting in, in CG. Bullpups look very good but have a mixed reaction from people wrt the ergonomic-ability, particularly when the battlefield doesnt have the constraints of a city.

 

@ alpha

 

yeah, they are a slightly altered versions, base gun is the same.

[ALPHA17]

what do you mean by final outcome ? ability to shoot of the soldiers ? or the damage the guns cause ?

 

in any case, Tavor are meant for urban combat, putting in legendary M16's fire power in a bull pup rifle's design to get maneuverability in tight spaces. It can be questionable as to why they are procured over conventional assault rifles for a predominantly jungle warfare that crpf will be facing and acting in, in CG. Bullpups look very good but have a miffed reaction from people wrt the ergonomic-ability, particularly when the battlefield doesnt have the constraints of a city.

 

The outcome when a bullet travelling at Mach 2 passes through human tissue.

 

The M16's are anything but legendary for their stopping power, they jammed, were unreliable, used to get rusted and corroded in field conditions and generally one of the worst weapons inducted for warfare. The only thing that the M16 had that the AK47 / AK74 lacked was accuracy at farther ranges (over ~250m). The Soviet Kalash was far superior in other situations, ease of use, stopping power, low maintenance and resilence to wear and tear.

 

The Bullpup is a configuration, not a gun type, basically the butt of the rifle houses a lot of components that would make a weapon longer, a length of the barrel, receiver, hammer would be jammed into the rear in a space saving measure; even the magazine and feeding mechanism is sometimes integrated into the design. These are good for urban fighting (where long barrels / shadows can give you away), the weapons are also better when fighting from APC's and Tanks. These guns are lighter as well because of the smaller size.

 

Also because the barrel can be stuffed into the butt, longer and heavier barrels can be swapped (in certain guns) to provide for a squad-based Marksman weapon which can be converted to other roles as well; improving versatility and field performance.

 

yeah, they are a slightly altered versions, base gun is the same.

 

Smaller dimensions too and no UBGL.

[Bird Bird Bird]

@ Alekh

 

what do you mean by final outcome ? ability to shoot of the soldiers ? or the damage the guns cause ?

What Alpha said.

It's all cool until you see the end result of this warfare (and I've seen plenty).

[Nemo]

 

 

The outcome when a bullet travelling at Mach 2 passes through human tissue.

 

The M16's are anything but legendary for their stopping power, they jammed, were unreliable, used to get rusted and corroded in field conditions and generally one of the worst weapons inducted for warfare. The only thing that the M16 had that the AK47 / AK74 lacked was accuracy at farther ranges (over ~250m). The Soviet Kalash was far superior in other situations, ease of use, stopping power, low maintenance and resilence to wear and tear.

 

The Bullpup is a configuration, not a gun type, basically the butt of the rifle houses a lot of components that would make a weapon longer, a length of the barrel, receiver, hammer would be jammed into the rear in a space saving measure; even the magazine and feeding mechanism is sometimes integrated into the design. These are good for urban fighting (where long barrels / shadows can give you away), the weapons are also better when fighting from APC's and Tanks. These guns are lighter as well because of the smaller size.

 

Also because the barrel can be stuffed into the butt, longer and heavier barrels can be swapped (in certain guns) to provide for a squad-based Marksman weapon which can be converted to other roles as well; improving versatility and field performance.

 

 

 

Smaller dimensions too and no UBGL.

 

 

 

 

Oh, Soviet Kalash is toh my favorite. I will not certify if i have or have not had the opportunity to fire it but what i can certify is having seen LIVE others fire it.

My feelings for AK47 can be best summed up as follows-

 

 

 

 

As for m16, by "legendary" i meant more in the terms of ubiquity that the gun enjoys and that is mainly because of the american backing it has in the NATO. It is a good weapon no doubt but suffers from the problems you mentioned. In any case, Isreali's themselves mentioned M16 when they first introduced Tavor, so that is that.

 

As for the Bullpup in general, they are are predominantly meant for urban warfare where you have multitudes of varied obstructions, closed spaces and complex layouts so therein a weapon that packs the firepower of a m16 with ease of moving wrt size is very beneficial. Now where the bull pup has courted criticisms are in its design and two of the prominent points are:

 

1. dis balance. a regular rifle has its weight spread near equally on the dominant and supporting hand, bull pup because of its design tends to distribute weight along the fire arm and the shoulder. so unless the gun is mounted tightly at the shoulder, it can cause the barrel to sway due to recoil when repeated firing. this looks to be temporarily taken care of by a muzzle extension as seen in the pic Udham posted.

 

2. bull pups are predominantly designed for a right handed shooter, and if they are made for a south paw, the gun is locked for that particular style, it is kind of like the bolt action rifles of the yore.

 

3. If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or eight inches in front of your eyes, it's right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear. The only good thing is, if the bolt flys back, it doesn't end up in your eye socket.

 

 

I am not an expert, just some one with an enthusiasm for fire arms and above are some of the points the critics have to say about Bull pup design in general. Just seems that crpf in CG will fight mostly in jungles which does not have the constraints of urban area, not to say that jungle warfare doesnt have troubles of its own, just that they are different from urban.

 

 

What Alpha said.

It's all cool until you see the end result of this warfare (and I've seen plenty).

 

 

True, warfare, or any sort of unnatural death is never pretty.

 

 

 

 

.....

[Nemo]

crap, i see i had missed out posting the LEGENDARY video

edited

[ALPHA17]

As for m16, by "legendary" i meant more in the terms of ubiquity that the gun enjoys and that is mainly because of the american backing it has in the NATO. It is a good weapon no doubt but suffers from the problems you mentioned. In any case, Isreali's themselves mentioned M16 when they first introduced Tavor, so that is that.

 

 

The M16 is popular because every good guy soldier uses while the bad guy uses the Kalash. Also the Israelis mentioned it because the gun shares the same round fired, NATO standard 5.56 x45mm.

 

Also the American's had no plan to use the 5.56mm round after WW II, they had continued development on the M14 rifle to succeed the iconic M1 Garand. It fired the 7.62 x51mm round. The Soviet's on the other hand having seen the effectiveness of rapid fire SMG's and carbines devoted themselves to marry the two concepts and get a carbine class weapon that had the stopping power of the rifle whilst could deliver fully automatic fire. They developed the same with the 7.62 x39mm round.

 

It was a groundbreaking weapon but the US armoury fraternity scoffed it off as a poor-man's SMG. It was seen as an inferior weapon till the beginning of the Vietnam War. The US Army and USMC was caught of guard and the AR-15 (prototype of M16) was hurriedly pushed through as a replacement for the older M14. The combat debut was a disaster, the gun had inferior construction, build and suffered a lot of teething troubles. Even the interiors of the rifle were found to be corroded after minimal usage.

 

The current M16 family is superior to what had debuted in the 1960's.

 

Also, due to the ideology of manufacturing (and thus the technique used) itself made the Kalash a more reliable weapon compared to the M16.

 

I am not an expert, just some one with an enthusiasm for fire arms and above are some of the points the critics have to say about Bull pup design in general. Just seems that crpf in CG will fight mostly in jungles which does not have the constraints of urban area, not to say that jungle warfare doesnt have troubles of its own, just that they are different from urban.

 

Neither am I, just like to keep knowledge off these topics.

 

Also you hit the nail on most of the Bullpup deficiencies save the last, most guns these days are more reliable and have a lesser tendency to explode then what used to be the case earlier.

 

Unless the Tavor suffers from too many issues like the newly inducted M16, I do not see it performing short of the regular assault rifles in the jungle environment.

[Nemo]

in retrospect, one can say that the issues with bullpup are not so much on the design as they are on the need for different kind of training required to make soldiers adapt themselves to this gun.