Right Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Ya so incidentally, group of MLA recently got together to pressurize govt to declare their caste a BC. And they didn't want to eat the existing quota for OBCs, they want additional 11%, in proortion to their population, to be added. So if approved, 95% of the seats/jobs in the state shall be 'reserved'. Great job folks. Jai ho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solitaire Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Ya so incidentally, group of MLA recently got together to pressurize govt to declare their caste a BC. And they didn't want to eat the existing quota for OBCs, they want additional 11%, in proortion to their population, to be added. So if approved, 95% of the seats/jobs in the state shall be 'reserved'. Great job folks. Jai ho! Great, just frickin' great. Only country where people fight to be backward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Right Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 This is getting shittier day by day, they have started demanding reservations in private sector. And they will get it their way one day. And it doesn't harm the lawmakers a bit on the personal level, their kids go to schools and colleges abroad, handle their daddy's "businesses", they get sick and get treated abroad. why bother with a general category common man? Vote lo aur note gino, desh gaya tel lene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Sucks to be a general category non rich entity i guess. The Sins of the father. imo trouble started with all caste groups clamoring themselves to be included in OBC. This is absurd. The reservations were meant for SC and ST's only as they were the most exploited. Now a days you have affluent farming, land lord (erstwhile zamindars) class in north, north west India demanding OBC status. Why ?? they were never oppressed, if anything in the past 300 years they were the forerunners in dalit/tribal exploitation in form of bonded labor at farms; at par with Brahmins if not even more than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solitaire Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 Sucks to be a general category non rich entity i guess. The Sins of the father. imo trouble started with all caste groups clamoring themselves to be included in OBC. This is absurd. The reservations were meant for SC and ST's only as they were the most exploited. Now a days you have affluent farming, land lord (erstwhile zamindars) class in north, north west India demanding OBC status. Why ?? they were never oppressed, if anything in the past 300 years they were the forerunners in dalit/tribal exploitation in form of bonded labor at farms; at par with Brahmins if not even more than them. Dude, I'm not even Brahmin and I'm a 'forward' caste person a.k.a non-reserved-general-category-idiot. Had to get a crazy score to get into the best colleges in the state on the first day of counseling. And heck, being non-Brahmin I didn't even get to oppress anyone in a past life for my present troubles Jokes aside, this is just terrible, why even bother studying if you can get through with 70% marks and get into a job where seats are reserved for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playstation Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 15-year-old gang-raped, burned to death in Uttar Pradesh village http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1835949/report-15-year-old-gang-raped-burned-to-death-in-uttar-pradesh-village Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylanjosh Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avkash Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Sucks to be a general category non rich entity i guess. The Sins of the father. imo trouble started with all caste groups clamoring themselves to be included in OBC. This is absurd. The reservations were meant for SC and ST's only as they were the most exploited. Now a days you have affluent farming, land lord (erstwhile zamindars) class in north, north west India demanding OBC status. Why ?? they were never oppressed, if anything in the past 300 years they were the forerunners in dalit/tribal exploitation in form of bonded labor at farms; at par with Brahmins if not even more than them. Dude, I'm not even Brahmin and I'm a 'forward' caste person a.k.a non-reserved-general-category-idiot. Had to get a crazy score to get into the best colleges in the state on the first day of counseling. And heck, being non-Brahmin I didn't even get to oppress anyone in a past life for my present troubles Jokes aside, this is just terrible, why even bother studying if you can get through with 70% marks and get into a job where seats are reserved for you. same here I am all for reservation - but only on the monetary condition and capabilities - right now the state of IITs is that the seats dedicated to reservation are left vacant at times - vacant - but not given to general class a poor brahmin will not get reservation but a well off person from SC will get it - what kind of up-lifting is this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achilles Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Haha. This is as far removed from 'uplifting' as a lighter is from shaving balls. It is just vote bank reservation. Nothing more. Nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 not all reservations go to rich affluent reserved category castes but all flames from a lighter will roast your bollocks. The present reservation policy might have some debatable topics but it is better than no reservations. Bitch and moan all you want but the kind of disadvantage and oppression faced by SCs and tribals for centuries can not be wished away, there is just too much bad blood for that. The reservations do and have helped a lot of people over come structural disadvantage. Is it fair for a general category non rich student.. ? well maybe not on an individual basis but in the grander schemes of things it has helped in restoration of some levels of parity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Right Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Nemo's generalization of oppressive brahmin zamindars is equivalent of mayawati's "manuwadi" rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Haha. Dude, no. Not really no. Ok maybe a little but how is that any different from making snap judgement that the practise of reservation is doing no good ? I mean Dalits and tribals were actively discouraged and flogged from seeking education not more than 60 years ago and still are segregated in levels as low as primary and middle school- http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/article95821.ece/ http://www.kcci.org.in/Document%20Repository/IIDS-UNICEF1.pdf And you will question the logic of having one quarter (which is proportionate, if not less than the total Dalit and tribal population) of seats reserved as an affirmative action for them just because they have some 7-8 % less ? Look I am not saying the process is cent percent perfect, there are a few contentious topics that need to be debated and scrutinised but it should in no way be scrapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Right Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Screw it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achilles Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 not all reservations go to rich affluent reserved category castes but all flames from a lighter will roast your bollocks. The present reservation policy might have some debatable topics but it is better than no reservations. Bitch and moan all you want but the kind of disadvantage and oppression faced by SCs and tribals for centuries can not be wished away, there is just too much bad blood for that. The reservations do and have helped a lot of people over come structural disadvantage. Is it fair for a general category non rich student.. ? well maybe not on an individual basis but in the grander schemes of things it has helped in restoration of some levels of parity. You choose to pick the wrong idea. My point was that the reason behind reservation at the undergraduate level had nothing to do with the concern for BCs. That it actually helped a little or a lot or not at all is up for debate. The kind of disadvantage and oppression faced by the common man today is pretty bad too. So was the oppression faced by everyone non-english before independence. There is no doubt in my mind that if actual upliftment was a concern, there are many steps that can be taken other than specific undergrad level reservation which will prove much better in the long run. Again, this is up for discussion from everyone's point of view. That this specific step was taken in the face of so many other options kind of makes it obvious (to me) why it was done. Other than not really improving BCs' state much, this step promotes casteism to a much larger extent. Haha. Dude, no. Not really no. Ok maybe a little but how is that any different from making snap judgement that the practise of reservation is doing no good ? I mean Dalits and tribals were actively discouraged and flogged from seeking education not more than 60 years ago and still are segregated in levels as low as primary and middle school- http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/article95821.ece/ http://www.kcci.org.in/Document%20Repository/IIDS-UNICEF1.pdf And you will question the logic of having one quarter (which is proportionate, if not less than the total Dalit and tribal population) of seats reserved as an affirmative action for them just because they have some 7-8 % less ? Look I am not saying the process is cent percent perfect, there are a few contentious topics that need to be debated and scrutinised but it should in no way be scrapped. My own understanding is that an individual is formed or recognises their individuality by the time they are ready for higher education, even in India. So, in my mind, having a better lower education will go much farther in equality for BCs for college and work and beyond. If you're not socially relevant even with reservation then that's a crappy waste of some seats that would better serve someone who could use them much better. True upliftment is when you make the individual capable of standing equally with everyone else. By the time they are 18, or probably even older, it is already too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solitaire Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Look I am not saying the process is cent percent perfect, there are a few contentious topics that need to be debated and scrutinised but it should in no way be scrapped. Oh that's not what we're saying either, what I'm going for is that this practice of increasing reservations all the time instead of working to actually help economically disadvantaged individuals study and come up to the same standards as privileged people screams votebank politics. Sure it has helped people back in 1950-1960 when even in the cities there must have been a huge divide, but not quite so today. How is it right that you throw a guy who can't perform as well as another candidate into an IIT or kickass state-level engineering or medical institute because he is from the OBC quota? If you're actually concerned about uplifting them, sure give them like 10-15% even reserved in total to eliminate small differences (a 95% criterion for SC/ST/OBC vs 100% score for a non-reserved supposedly privileged candidate) and help them financially and through state-sponsored facilities to study better at the primary and secondary schooling levels. But that's not what any political party or government does, they just go for the easiest band-aid they can find while the wound festers below the skin - increase quotas and forget about actually changing things for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 I agree with Nemo's evaluation, affirmative action is needed, this I speak from my own personal experience at UG level. I got a good rank in AIEEE and got admitted in PEC under civil engineering, i believe it was the Second day of college, and we formed groups to practice for participating in some kind of fresher's function, I always participated in extra curricular so it was a no-brainer, and pitched in with 4 more non-acquainted fellow students from my course. and we had Tute rooms on the third floor of the building which were literally empty, so we chose to practise there ( bhangra ). So long story short, head of Apllied science department, for reasons best known to him, decided on showing his AUTHORITAAAY, and since we were practicising in Tute rooms meant for study, he came and started scolding like anything, we were shell shocked, as 24 hours ago they were the one's who had encouraged us to participate and practise, all of a sudden he starts asking everyone their AIEEE ranks, we all gave our ranks, and turned out that 2 of the 5 students were actually "Quota Students", he spearated the two, and kept us three on the other side, and statred uttering obscenities about the reserved students right to their face, then he turned towards us and pointing towards the reserved category guys said something that really shook my whole perspective about what discrimination really is, the words that came from his mouth really stuck with me forever. He said :- "Tumneh bhi innkeh jaisa bann naa hai, inkoh toh pio daadeh ki zaat keh kaaran admission mill gayi hai, aggeh JOB bhi mill jaayegi, chahe inkoh kuch aata ho ya na ho, yeh saara saal padhte nahin aur fir baadh mein professoron keh piche attendance poori karne keh liye ghoomteh hain." And then he took their roll numbers on a piece of paper and returned to his office, the shame on the faces of those guys that they had been put to in front of their own classmates could only be felt if you were in their own shoes, mere 18 year old's having to go through that kind of a humiliating experience is bound to affect their psyche, i saw this episode getting repeated in every lecture, where teachers would make students utter out their AIEEE ranks on the pretext of introduction, for us it was just any other day, but for the reserved category guys it was usually a choice between lying about their ranks or getting humiliated, they often chose the former over the latter. Simply put, that one short episode in my life changed my whole perspective about reservations, i realised that in a perfect world reservation is an imperfect policy, but in an imperfect world, there is no other substitute, cos until and unless the society gets mixed up like sugar and water, there cannot be an end to this discrimination (be it reverse in our general category students case, and direct in case of reserved category candidates) SO as much as i hate the policy, there is no substitute, and one has to understand that it is not because of a person's economic standards that one gets discriminated but in the end of it all, it's all about his caste, be it either way. As the episode relating to Jagjivan Ram shows (the then Home Minister offering prayers at a place, and right after he returned getting washed by upper castes of the same village washing down the place for it has been made unholy by a shudra). I think it is this discrimination (direct, reverse) faced by both sides that has resulted in vote bank politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 making reservations is not the way if your real intention is to uplift the disadvantaged. Education should be improved at the grass root levels. Improve the school infrastructure at their villages , tribal areas, so that those students can have access to better education. Honestly speaking, you are doing no one a favor by just giving them reservations in jobs and higher education. That's just escaping out on the real issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solitaire Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 If it's all about caste and not the economic status, then what prevented those students in the quota section from getting better scores than the regular non-quota students? If poorer facilities is what prevents them, then that should be what the government works on, not just open doors to every student who doesn't excel. Sure, that guy was brash and his manner of speaking about the reserved category students was uncalled for. However, that doesn't take away the fact that they did indeed get there via the 'quota'. His tirade was because of the fact that they got in with a much lower rank, not simply because of the fact that they were of one caste or another. 'Discrimination' would have been if they got the same scores as the other and had their admission denied because they were 'backward' caste students. I'm not saying that the professor/teacher/tutor should be saying all that and shaming them in public. However, if they were 'quota' students that had the same rank as the general category candidates in that room, then what I said wouldn't be true. We've had state toppers that were piss poor - totally disadvantaged people with little money to their name and parents who were laborers or abused them. If those people can perform, I'm sure less-privileged people can do well given proper facilities. If there are people who discriminate against their entry into institutions based on their caste, then single those people out and punish them to the fullest extent of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 whichever way you slice it, quota system is regressive .... you are shooting yourself in the foot if you think its gonna help a society .... looking at the way the states/centre is giving reservations, the country will be devoid of true talent sooner or later.... if u really want to improve the disadvantaged, have a more rural centric view instead of a caste centric view .... have a look at some of the villages where people don't even have drinking water .... spend your resources on improving their living conditions .... give them basic education , food and the infrastructure for them to make a living when they grow up .... reserving seats in higher education or jobs without giving them basic educational facilities is just not the way to bring up a society ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted May 18, 2013 Report Share Posted May 18, 2013 Well all valid and logical points, but deep down it's the same discrimination, first it was based on occupation that one did, and now it has changed it's outer appearance into "asking for merit", which in itself is a big paradox, for merit can only be the basis when there are no socio-economic differences (aka the concept of creamy layer). The crux remains the same that the other guy is less worth than me, or in other words I am better than the other. Why reservation cannot be on economic basis ? Because then it will become a dynamic process and people who underperform greatly will benefit greatly, by restricting it to caste this dynamic aspect has been curtailed to a large extent, because even after reservation, the quota guys have to clear a minimum cut off line, and compete within themselves. Why facilities and other measures are good theoreticallyon paper, but impractical in real world conditions ? Because Indian society is highly caste ridden, and if people even after getting seats in colleges, or even getting employed in highly respectable jobs still have to face discrimination, how can it be expected that without reservation, they will not be treated the same way they were treated pre-reservation period, how can it be expected that all of a sudden all of the upper castes have had a moral awakening and they have changed their ways for the good ?. Even today, Horror Killings rule the roost, matrimonial alliances are expected to be within the same caste, and economic status of the other party determines the allaince being accepted or rejected. So yes in theory all the above are valid and logical suggestions, but practically they cannot be implemented without creating a foundation of equal proportional representation at all socio-economic levels, which can only be done via reservations (there is no substitute as of yet given by sociologists). These measures are valid post reservation era. IN USA they provided reservations for over 100 years to the blacks, and it wasn't until the uprising in the period of Martin Luther King, that the blacks actually recognised the need to rise up and work for their places in the society, and that platform has to be provided much more so in the case of Indian historical perspective, I know many who despite being from the reserved category prefer to compete with general category students in competitive exams, and have cleared exams like CSE (one of my own batchmate) so it's isn't all black & white. That moral awakening is needed for everyone including the general as well as reserved category candidates. One cannot expect to put an end to reverse discrimination, without putting an end to the source of direct discrimination !! the golden rule being Hate begets Hate, we general category keep hating them and they will reciprocate !! Anyways moving to my rhetoric over Media loosing it's moral ground !! http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/all-but-lynched-by-the-media/article4724980.ece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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