Ne0 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 ^^ can't argue with you there .... but again it brings back the same question .... who's the alternative ? Like I had said before, if the current ruling party managed to clean its ranks and put forward a candidate with good administration/leadership credentials, people wouldn't be flocking to vote for Modi. Best ex is the previous election, where UPA2 was brought back to power (I myself favored UPA2 in the last election), hoping MMS would bring in a change if he didn't have the left dragging him down ! More than Modi's communal appeal , IMO, his popularity is in part contributed by the repeated failure of the ruling party in their in-ability to address the issues plaguing the administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Can't argue with the latter point, with dual power center & the real power center being out of the country for treatment of a mysterious illness & with a hesitant leader like RG, it left a huge gaping hole in the political spectrum of the country, INC was left rudderless & most of the leaders including those of coalition partners like TMC, NCP, DMK etc. were busy pulling each other down, the opposition took full advantage of that to turn the tide in their favor (can't blame them for being proactive) and now the whole corporate lobby is with Modi & no-one even comes close to the hype that has been created around him in the urban electorate, rural masses is another story all together. As far as alternative is concerned, for me it's about choosing the lesser evil, and for me mass genocide will trump graft/lack of governance any given day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 ^^ then you can't really vote for either of the major parties currently, as both have their share of blood shed. Of course, unless you choose to be selective about which regions/religions are more dear to you ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playstation Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Need not be .... the outcome of an election doesn't always indicate the alternative that you "could" have supported before you cast your vote, since mostly it'll be the result of political tie-ins and coalitions in the aftermath , especially considering the huge role of local region / caste based politics that happen in our country .... ! It might not even reflect the fact that the majority of the people wanted that person / party to be their PM in the first place ! What I'm pointing out here is , when people keep harping on and on, beating their so called "secularism" drum advising how the humanity is being led to a mass genocide yada yada, little do they go beyond that point , and suggest an alternative ! If you think people are planning to elect Modi because they are all fascists or driven by personality cult, you couldn't be more wrong .... its got more to do with the rampant corruption and the inability of the current govt to do anything about it .... I don't have high hopes that Modi can bring in a drastic change either, but then, voting for the same guys who are accused of rampant corruption time and again just because they "claim" to be secular, and some others blindly believe them to be so, sends a very wrong message. IMO, its kind of like giving a free pass for the future politicians to come , and that's not doing any caste/religion/sect/country any big favors either ! Modi is made to look like a ravan where as others are ram compared to him...fact is people have forgot 1984 it seems and the culprits still roaming freely ....the secularism mask of the congress is just to woo huge muslim vote and to give a negative image of Modi. Not only rampant corruption .... they have compromised our nation's security (china and pakistan) too. ...bloody traitors.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 @ Ne0 that is what is meant by choosing the lesser evil & there is a clear 'loser' (no winners here) when that is to be considered, exactly why Modi is called a polarizing force cos everyone will be forced to choose a side and there isn't a 3rd alternative if the monster has to be drubbed into the ground, being mute spectators or wasting your vote is not a solution (the butcher bull story in the link above was an apt example of that), if this monster is to be stopped it will have to be done as a combined united force, hadn't it been Modi on the other side i probably would have skipped the elections this time around but not now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playstation Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 ^^ then you can't really vote for either of the major parties currently, as both have their share of blood shed. Of course, unless you choose to be selective about which regions/religions are more dear to you ! neo, respect bro...not because of the post ...i see you very active in country's politics even though you are not living here i believe.. nice to see people care for their motherland even when away unlike some nri idiots who have no point to make but would just come up and post hey dont listen to him he knows nothing etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 @saint, I appreicate your sentiments, but there are two things you are assuming here: 1. Modi would polarize and divide the nation if he's elected: Now, I'm not the one to comment on his role in the riots, neither do I've the evidence nor have I witnessed it first hand. But, if the past few years and the recent run up to the polls are any indication, I feel its quite on the contrary. He seems to be more interested in indulging minorities and build up credibility as secular leader. Now, it might have to do with the vote bank politics followed by almost all politicians in our country. But then again , if you see the latest trends, I see support for Modi coming up even from the minority community. Now, whether its orchestrated or genuine, I do not know. I'm not extrapolating / imposing the views of a few over the many, but I'm just saying .... many people currently don't seem to view Modi as big a threat as his detractors are making him to be. Now these guys do not seem to be brainwashed by communal appeal, they are just your average citizens who're fed up of the decay in the administration and just want a change. Now the question - why Modi ? Its the same reason why people assumed jan lok pal bill will be the one stop solution to all their problems. They can't see an alternative before them. Even if it were, its not being presented in a format that the common man can identify with. All they is a young , in-experienced & unproven guy on one hand, whose party has literally been in the middile of many ongoing graft investigations, and on the other hand, there's this guy who has done well for his state (and while some of the numbers might be bloated up), not all can be wrong. There has to be some substance to back it up. Its not that people are polarized because of Modi, its just that , among the current crop of politicians he stands out as the only "development icon" as he is projected. 2. Any other person from another party wouldn't do that: Again, if history is any proof, we have seen how low politicians can stoop to in the blind lust for power or to justify their hatred. Remember the massacre of sikhs in 1984 in which high ranking members from a certain party were accused of playing a major hand ? Remember what Rajiv Gandhi (the then prime minister ?) had to say for that massacre ? IIRC, this was his official statement to the press at that time: "when a big tree falls, the earth shakes". So, don't for one moment assume that you are choosing the lesser evil. IMO, politicians are capable of doing the horrible of deeds given the chance, or if it means they get to hold onto power. The recent best ex is the poorly thought out and premature division of andhra pradesh into telangana. I won't comment on whether its good or bad, but the careless / haphazard way in which it is being carried out (rumors are it was a ploy to divide the votes) speaks volumes of how little politicians care about the common man(irrespective of his religion/caste). I've some friends from the region, who say in most villages even basic stuff like drinking water had to be rationed out due to the ongoing agitations at that time. There's nothing like a "lesser evil" in politics, its all about circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 neo, respect bro...not because of the post ...i see you very active in country's politics even though you are not living here i believe.. nice to see people care for their motherland even when away unlike some nri idiots who have no point to make but would just come up and post hey dont listen to him he knows nothing etc.... thanks buddy .... when you are outside, you miss your home even more maybe Also, when you are abroad , you see things from an outsider's perspective. You get a diverse/different view on how things are and could be back home. Couple this with no interference from local news channels brain washing your opinions, you can take some independent views/opinions based on different sources !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 The links of the debate posted earlier, is modi trying to change his image ? (previous page) cover & answer all of your above points, and i think Yogendra & Prof Apoorvanand discussed these points very comprehensively, it's a text book fascist surge for power tried & tested in Germany of 1930's and it is being played to the dot ever since the result of Gujarat elections came out !!! The saving grace being that Germany of 30's & India of 2014 are two entirely different entities both historically, socially & politically and this is why i am quite sure that this dream of a Hindutva state will never be allowed to take shape let alone have a fundamentalist like modi or advani being at the helm of affairs, but that does not warrant a lackadaisical attitude on anti right wing forces. And yes there is a lesser evil in politics that is why democracy has under its ambit right, centre & left parties, they in themselves define the moral scales of polity depending on the value system of the electorate. Fortunately value system of India is a very tolerant one & hence centre does not shift too much towards the right scale, there are exceptions, but that scale has never swayed towards the right for too long, be it punjab of 80's or UP of late 80's or early 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 ^^ opinion pieces like them are dime a dozen , but at the end of the day, they are just that ! Like i said before any person will agree/disagree with them depending on what suits their perception . Like how you trivialize the riots of the 80's (or rather accept them as the lesser evil) but believe the riots of 2000's were a blot on humanity,. If you ask the suffered mass of the 80's riots , they might not agree with you .... here's another article by some researcher which puts Modi in a good light , now again, some might agree or disagree with it , but it cannot be held as the absolute. Because at the end of the day, its just someone stating his opinion on the WWW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 oops double post .... edited ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Exactly opinion peices pro modi are also dime a dozen rather flooding the media by the thousands every passing day, my stated position on 84 riots has been described in detail in previous posts of mine. I have never trivialized 84 riots, but the fact remains that there was no hindutva foundation (ideological base) to the 84 riots in case of ruling party, it was a culmination of the hate & assaults on both sides that had been brewing owing to many factors, at the helm the PM of the country was murdered in cold blood bringing the state machinery to a grinding halt and was rendered dysfunctional which diverted all state attention to her, many used this to vent their hate including many congress leaders, but do bring to light which Vajpayee or modi was killed in 2002, that the state machinery was left leaderless & thus failed to act even after 3 days of widespread rioting, rapes & murders, is that the level of administration skills that people harp on ? So yes there is a lesser evil, whether or not you want to see it, that is the choice of the individual concerned. Also since we are down to trading charges and pointing fingers, so i take it you completely agree with the idea of a separate khalistan & a fundamnetalist hindutva state, cos that ofcourse is the logical conclusion that i can very well construe after reading your support for the administration skills of Modi, he clearly did a great job in 2002, isn't it ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Exactly opinion peices pro modi are also dime a dozen rather flooding the media by the thousands every passing day, my stated position on 84 riots has been described in detail in previous posts of mine. I have never trivialized 84 riots, but the fact remains that there was no hindutva foundation (ideological base) to the 84 riots in case of ruling party, it was a culmination of the hate & assaults on both sides that had been brewing owing to many factors, at the helm the PM of the country was murdered in cold blood bringing the state machinery to a grinding halt and was rendered dysfunctional which diverted all state attention to her, many used this to vent their hate including many congress leaders, but do bring to light which Vajpayee or modi was killed in 2002, that the state machinery was left leaderless & thus failed to act even after 3 days of widespread rioting, rapes & murders, is that the level of administration skills that people iharp on ? So yes there is a lesser evil, whether or not you want to see it, that is the choice of the individual concerned. Also since we are down to trading charges and pointing fingers, so i take it you completely agree with the idea of a separate khalistan & a fundamnetalist hindutva state, cos that ofcourse is the logical conclusion that i can very well construe after reading your support for the administration skills of Modi, he clearly did a great job in 2002, isn't it ?? I'm not exactly sure what are u trying to say here. As i see it, both massacres were equally evil and so are the people responsible for it. Both resulted in loss of innocent lives and ignoring one while condemning the other is just selective bias .... As for last section (para) of your statements.... No, i don't support having a separate khalistan or rather, secession of any kind , nor do i support the handling of godhra riots ! I firmly believe in the integrity and unity of India and Indians. I'm not sure why on earth would you draw such an inference ! Anyway if u are going to ask me specifically about godhra riots, then i will concede that it was a massive administrative failure on behalf of both the state and the central govt at that time, in containing the massive losses to lives and property. But i wont be selective about it.....i consider that similar administrative lapses also happened on behalf the current ruling party for their inability to protect the people resulting on losses of hundreds of lives due to waves terror attacks including 26/11.... the failure of the current UP govt, to contain the muzzafarnagar riots, etc. IMO they are all equally to blame, for their respective failures in their responsibilities to protect and serve people ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 And as i see it, 2002 was a planned genocide with a ideological base of hindutva at its core & the person at the helm of affairs at that time who overlooked the whole massacre is being projected as the PM of this country and his core constituency of right wingers is the one driving the whole personality cult. It is not about which one was more of a blot on humanity (both were), but the moot point is, what was the driving force behind both, the ideological base, which will keep sprouting more such 1992, 2002, 2013 again and again & it is that ideology that has to be defeated & there is no 3rd option of being a mute spectator. Similarly why terrorism is a blot on humanity, not because they have their valid reason to retaliate, it is the ideological base that fans that fire leading to 2001, 2008 & many more. The same goes for Hindutva, it fans the fire that leads to Ayodhya, Gujarat, Muzaffarnagar & countless more. As far as my belief is concerned, I firmly believe humanity is above country, creed, religion etc, and that is where my conviction is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0 Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 ^^ those are some pretty serious accusations right there, anyway, i think i'll stop the discussion here before this ends up as a debate on religions .... which was definitely not what this discussion started out as .... its very much accepted that humanity is definitely above all .... no one is debating that here i guess ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sa1nT_SoLd1eR Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Yeah well, the same can be said about the graft accusations, that's all they are accusations, but when compared side by side, genocide trumps graft any given day !! Ideology of humanity is the only answer to the political upheaval going on right now in India, unfortunately none of the parties opposing modi understand this need, as was described in those links that lead to this debate. Role of SP, BSP & INC (esp. the ruling party SP) in the recent muzaffarnagar riots is a pristine example of that. They should have held on to the secular ideals firmly & acted accordingly in a proactive manner, Amit Shah's arrival in UP & VHP's 84 kosi yatra was a loud & clear warning sign of what was coming, on the contrary they happily fell in the trap right wing forces wanted them to go in & who knows how many more such incidents are waiting to happen if they still don't realize what they are up against & get their house in order & put up a united front based on true secular ideals, and not opportunistic ones which further erode the secular foundation of India. However the less said the better about that happening ever, so .... thanks for having a civilized debate !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolfy among us Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 My grandmother, father were killed, I may be killed too: Rahul Gandhi Read more at: http://ibnlive.in.com/news/my-grandmother-father-were-killed-i-may-be-killed-too-rahul-gandhi/430040-37-64.html?utm_source=ref_article Sympathy vote bank max! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sach4life Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Kya idiot log hain yeh gandhi family.. hope modi wins this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playstation Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 My grandmother, father were killed, I may be killed too: Rahul Gandhi Read more at: http://ibnlive.in.co...rce=ref_article Tum log ko joh marega uska photo lagayega apna room hum.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playstation Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Keran: Now, Pak troops force India to end construction work Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/india/keran-now-pak-troops-force-india-to-end-construction-work-1187817.html?utm_source=ref_article Great............bangladesh ...sri lanka ...nepal...bhutan ...myanmar.....tum log bhi aao maro mera desh ka.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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