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HundredProofSam

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13 minutes ago, sobbii said:

Why do you think it's trying to expose society and had a deeper social message going on.. Its a movie just enjoy it for it what it is..

 

Because it attempts and pretends to do exactly that?

The basic plot of the movie itself is how society shapes the transformation of a mentally ill guy into a villain. Of course it is trying to say something about society. It literally has the character spell it out in the end. He says something along the lines of, "This is what happens when you throw a mentally ill loner into a bad society". I'm paraphrasing here.

If you just go back a few pages in this thread itself, you will see how even people who like the movie are themselves calling it deep.

So why should I not ask for what that depth is which everybody seems to be so enamored by?

 

Your question is like asking someone who's complaining about bad action in an action movie why he's expecting there to be good action in it.

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9 minutes ago, STICK3Rboy said:

 

Because it attempts and pretends to do exactly that?

The basic plot of the movie itself is how society shapes the transformation of a mentally ill guy into a villain. Of course it is trying to say something about society. It literally has the character spell it out in the end. He says something along the lines of, "This is what happens when you throw a mentally ill loner into a bad society". I'm paraphrasing here.

If you just go back a few pages in this thread itself, you will see how even people who like the movie are themselves calling it deep.

So why should I not ask for what that depth is which everybody seems to be so enamored by?

 

Your question is like asking someone who's complaining about bad action in an action movie why he's expecting there to be good action in it.

It shows how a mentally ill dude becomes a villain and does a great job at that. What depth are you looking for here? It is not going to change your life or have you exit the theater with an existential crisis. What are you not understanding about all this? 

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17 minutes ago, adity said:

There is some social commentary but it's still a character study and is always focused on Arthur. Not sure what's edgy about a mentally ill not getting the help he needs and being driven to insanity. 

It's also pretty consistent with how mental illnesses are not taken as seriously as they should be even today. Is that edgy for you? I honestly don't think you know what edgy means. 

And is edgy isn't automatically bad anyways. Tyler Durden is edgy af and is still a great character in a great movie. I think edgy has become just a catch all phrase for whatever old people are not able to understand. 

 

There is a big attempt at social commentary and it fails at it. The thing about movies is, when you try something and fail at it, it just makes you look bad. Case in point, bollywood action movies.

And again, I didn't say the character itself was edgy. The movie is edgy and I already told you why. It's all the pretense of being deep and profound coming from a child.

And yes, edgy can be good as well as bad. This is the bad kind.

 

3 minutes ago, adity said:

It shows how a mentally ill dude becomes a villain and does a great job at that. What depth are you looking for here? It is not going to change your life or have you exit the theater with an existential crisis. What are you not understanding about all this? 

.

:lol:

Dude, you yourself told me in the previous page that I didn't understand the movie if I didn't find any depth in it.

Now you're saying I should not expect any depth. So what is it? Depth or no depth?

 

You seem to be as confused about the movie as the movie is about itself.

 

Edited by STICK3Rboy
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Just now, STICK3Rboy said:

 

There is a big attempt at social commentary and it fails at it. The thing about movies is, when you try something and fail at it, it just makes you look bad. Case in point, bollywood action movies.

And again, I didn't say the character itself was edgy. The movie is edgy and I already told you why. It's all the pretense of being deep and profound coming from a child.

And yes, edgy can be good as well as bad. This is the bad kind.

 

.

:lol:

Dude, you yourself told me in the previous page that I didn't understand the movie if I didn't find any depth in it.

Now you're saying I should not expect any depth. So what is it? Depth or no depth?

I am just not sure what you were expecting from it and why you think it failed at it? I went in expecting seeing a Joker origin story and got that. It was lacking in some places but was generally very satisfying. What do you think it failed at? 

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19 minutes ago, adity said:

I am just not sure what you were expecting from it and why you think it failed at it? I went in expecting seeing a Joker origin story and got that. It was lacking in some places but was generally very satisfying. What do you think it failed at? 

 

You still haven't answered what depth you saw in the movie (you even did a casual 180 on it), while I'm answering all your questions.

I feel like there's no point in answering them at this point.

 

And honestly, it should be the DC fans who should be up in arms about getting a juvenile and bollywood-like origin story for a character such as the Joker.

But it looks like most of you can't see past the admittedly great performance from Phoenix. That is fine. Like I said in my initial post, even I was entertained by the movie and thought it was decent.

It's just all the #2deep4u claims (and the movie's own pretensions) that make me focus more on the depth of the movie, which is just not there.

 

 

 

 

Edited by STICK3Rboy

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Saw Joker. It’s a movie 15 year old me would have enjoyed; a decade and half later tho, Boring af. 

 

Cinematography is great and Qwa-Queen Phoenix acted well, but it’s hard to feign excitement when the act is basically Linkin Park with volume turned down.  

 

Abused childhood is the most cliched reasoning you could have, and then they threw in some Marxian commentary make it ‘seem’ layered. 

 

At best this movie can be watched at home interspersed with breaks to not drown yourself with boredom; not a theatre movie by any means. 

 

A solid 4.5/10 

(5 if it leads to an entertaining mass shooting in ‘Merica) 

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17 hours ago, Playstationdude said:

Bitch, what's wrong with Linkin Park. :slap:

 

Absolutely nothing from acoustic and melodic perspective, but you gotta realise the lyrics are whiny af. 

 

Which is great for its demography, not hating on that. But one Has to grow out of it.

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A question to Joker lovers (man that sounds wrong)-

 

Why is this Joker threatening ? Like what makes him someone I'd fear running into a dark alley ? Ledger's joker was a criminal mastermind (well, relatively) and proficient with weapons. Nicholson was a straight up mob boss who liked to wear makeup. 

 

Phoneix is an emaciated retard with a laugh. How am i to believe he's gonna stand along ra's, or penguin; let alone batman. At no point do we see him being having resources or charm. Yeah he is "crazy", but after the first element of surprise someone will overpower and tie him up; then what ?

 

I was half hoping him wearing the full suit/face paint would mean a split personality that shows the shades of B:TAS joker, but nope. It still played out as an emo teen fantasy.  

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11 hours ago, dante77 said:

Saw In the tall grass. I liked it, don't know why so many negative reviews. Its kinda like Triangle. It at least kept me glued throughout.

Yeah, decent watch. Nothing exceptional though. 

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I don’t really know what to say about the Joker 

 

The acting is obviously Oscar worthy 

but I don’t think it was a strong script 

 

it totally depended on the struggling madness of the character & the actor playing it 

 

It just didn’t have any valid “bad day” to turn him into the Joker as we know from DCU 

 

Bad parenting 

Struggling Poverty 

Low Self Confidence 

Aimless desires 

 

isn’t all this what 95% of the world population is suffering from anyway 

 

how does it make him stand out as the one guy who had that ‘bad day’ to turn him into the character we saw in Dark Knight 

 

At one point it did make sense

 

when the fatherhood is revealed

but even that was dropped in favour of other mishaps 

 

Plus so many things untying with the DCU like the death of Wayne Family 

& Joker’s true Identity out in the open & on national news 

 

i mean no one was supposed to know who Arthur was & what his back story really was 

 

& Lastly but most importantly 

the Joker character in DC was never delusional or senile

he was mentally sick in his own way but very very sharp & a mastermind

 

It shouldn’t have been part of the Batman Universe at all 

Maybe then it would have been judged on its own merits & demerits 

Edited by AnK
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On 10/8/2019 at 12:50 AM, Nemo said:

A question to Joker lovers (man that sounds wrong)-

 

Why is this Joker threatening ? Like what makes him someone I'd fear running into a dark alley ? Ledger's joker was a criminal mastermind (well, relatively) and proficient with weapons. Nicholson was a straight up mob boss who liked to wear makeup. 

 

Phoneix is an emaciated retard with a laugh. How am i to believe he's gonna stand along ra's, or penguin; let alone batman. At no point do we see him being having resources or charm. Yeah he is "crazy", but after the first element of surprise someone will overpower and tie him up; then what ?

 

I was half hoping him wearing the full suit/face paint would mean a split personality that shows the shades of B:TAS joker, but nope. It still played out as an emo teen fantasy.  

 

Just a small opinion of mine (As a lover of this particular version of Joker; please do note I am not that great of a fan of DC comics/Joker anyway):

 

1) This Joker is not supposed to stand alongside Ra's (Comics Version - The one who is immortal with a Lazarus Pit That can revive the dead)/Mr Freeze/Killer Croc or things like that.

2) This version of Joker can stand alongside the Ninja Ra's of Nolanverse or a normal mob boss Penguin just fine

3) This is just the origin of the Joker. It showed how he went from an (almost) normal person to full crazy. He has not yet developed his tricks. Just as how Bruce has not yet developed the Batcave and other gadgets. You might as well ask how the Bruce in this movie can stand up to Ra's/Penguin/whatever

4) This entire movie is literally the "First Element of Surprise". He will develop more later. Mob boss connections will also develop later. We literally see him develop the beginning of connections with crazies in this movie. He has also

Spoiler

Already been tied up at the end. So that element of surprise is over. Any further movies on this Joker will come with a normal Joker with the full bag of tricks. 

5) This is a stand-alone film. Phoenix Joker will not be in DCEU. So no contention with Justice League and/or any over-powered/supernatural villain

 

And most important, also for @AnK question:

 

This is a realistic Joker who is actually crazy (Unlike a normal mob boss). IRL if a person is perfectly fine, absolutely mentally healthy and lived a good life - "Just One Bad Day" will not make them the Joker and go on a killing spree. 

 

The "One Bad Day" is always the incident that broke the Camel's Back and proved too much. But there are always a series of events leading up to that. The events are depicted beautifully here. there is an underlying cause (Mental Illness), then the actual circumstances that are forgotten, but Phoenix was forced to bring up to memory later

Spoiler

(Abuse in Childhood+The crazy mother's ramblings about Thomas Wayne)

The series of bad events that just kept on getting worse, which Phoenix was able to bear until he could bear it no more

Spoiler

(Mugging on Street and mockery by kid's mother; then the planting of gun by his friend whom he trusted; then mockery by random rich snobs on train - which was bad enough he killed someone for the first time; abuse by Thomas Wayne and his servants without even listening to his views or offering any explanation until much later - that too in a condescending manner; and finally his mother getting sick and his favourite comedian/hero mocking him live on TV during that time - along with his imaginary GF, which his sick mind conjured up rejecting him IRL - which was the final straw and he could take it no more)

 

If it helps, just forget the names of Joker, Bruce Wayne/Thomas Wayne and DC. And just look at it as a single Mindhunter episode or a standalone film which shows a crazy person's life and what led him to become a shooter. And judge the quality by that standard. Because in reality - that's what it is.

Edited by roun90
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That’s exactly my point 

it would have been better off just a standalone Joker movie 

 

without Gotham,Wayne or Bruce 

 

 

It’s confusing ppl more than it’s unfolding any revelation about who Joker really was & how he came to be the no name,no label,no alias Maniac that has ruled the D.C. universe 

Coz ppl are definitely going in with an expectation to know more about the D.C. Joker 

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12 minutes ago, AnK said:

That’s exactly my point 

it would have been better off just a standalone Joker movie 

 

without Gotham,Wayne or Bruce 

 

 

It’s confusing ppl more than it’s unfolding any revelation about who Joker really was & how he came to be the no name,no label,no alias Maniac that has ruled the D.C. universe 

Coz ppl are definitely going in with an expectation to know more about the D.C. Joker 

 

DC made it absolutely clear that this is a stand-alone Joker. They have also repeatedly kept saying that Phoenix Joker will not be in DCEU and will not come back.

 

AFAIK there are now 3 DC Live Action Universes - One is the DCEU (WW;Aquaman; Justice League; DC's normal Batman films with Affleck and now Robert Pattison etc.); The TV Series (Gotham, Titans etc.) and one which is called "DC Dark/Black" This is where all their realistic stand-alone movies goes into. This universe starts with this Joker movie, but I assume the Nolanverse will be included in this as well.

 

From Source:

 

DC's non-DCEU movie label will kick off with the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie and could end up being called DC Dark or DC Black, according to a new report. The idea behind starting up a DC film sub-franchise is that it will allow room for directors to come in and make one-off DC movies that aren't beholden to the continuity of the larger DC cinematic universe. Much like DC's Elseworlds imprint does for the company's comic book division, DC Dark/Black would (in theory) open the door to more experimenting with the DC movie brand and its characters.

 

Sourcehttps://www.newsweek.com/joker-joaquin-phoenix-dc-cinematic-universe-extended-universe-dceu-jared-leto-1463551

Edited by roun90
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